Post by: dave1986 on May 06, 2020, 07:40:53 pm
The Fanatic does seem to be the best crossover wingfoil/ SUP foil option for boards available in the UK as far as I can see.. shame it's a bit on the heavier side though.
Post by: phil on May 06, 2020, 10:40:55 am
Post by: dave1986 on May 05, 2020, 10:40:10 pm
I've rounded it down to 2 different options either the Fanatic Sky SUP 6ft 11 (142litre) or the F-One Rocket Wing V2 6ft 6 (140litre).
The F-one board is 2kg lighter, but is marketed at winging only... does anyone know whether it would be suitable for SUP foiling too?
Please let me know your thoughts on these 2 options?
Post by: stenninger on April 22, 2020, 08:08:26 am
sorry no advice - just another option (also beginner)
I ordered an inflatable foil board (6'0, 144L)
https://shop.indiana-paddlesurf.com/foil/inflatable-foil/indiana-6-0-wing-foil-inflatable.html
Main Idea was traveling (not at the moment) and possibility to get all the kit in the car (small one).
And it may also work on the river where it can handle bumping into stones better.
@knatti
once we are allowed to cross borders again, we should have a session together chiemsee and switch boards for a test.
That idea of travelling with an inflatable is a good one! Sounds interesting!
btw, the last 3 days have been pretty good with a strong easterly.
cheers
Post by: dave1986 on April 22, 2020, 07:21:06 am
Post by: knatti on April 19, 2020, 05:46:38 pm
I ordered an inflatable foil board (6'0, 144L)
https://shop.indiana-paddlesurf.com/foil/inflatable-foil/indiana-6-0-wing-foil-inflatable.html
Main Idea was traveling (not at the moment) and possibility to get all the kit in the car (small one).
And it may also work on the river where it can handle bumping into stones better.
Post by: dave1986 on April 07, 2020, 04:58:21 pm
Can anyone offer any more suggested beginner wing foil board options for a 90kg rider?
I'm open to any suggestions from around 115litres up to around 145 litres. The larger sizes would have the advantage of being able to crossover to SUP foiling.
Current suggestions as follows:
Fanatic Sky SUP Foil
- 6ft 11" x 30" / 142 litre
- 6ft 7" x 28.5" / 125 litre
Takuma SUP Foil
- 6ft 6" x 27 / 135 litre
Axis Carbon SUP Foilboard
- 6ft 8" x 28" / 120 litre
F-one Rocket Wing
- 6ft 6" x 30" / 135 litre
Indiana SUP Foil
- 6ft 2" x 30" / 130 litre
GONG SUP ZUMA 100% FOIL FSP 2X
- 6ft 6" x 30" / 120 litre
- 6ft 9" x 31" / 140 litre
Starboard Hyper Foil.
- 7ft 7" x 30" / 137 litre
- 6ft 6" x 30" / 116 litre
Post by: Dommo on April 04, 2020, 03:55:21 pm
I seem to have fallen into the trap of assuming that what worked for me must work best for everyone, when the reality is that we all adapt to the kit we are using, and as we improve we assume it's our kit in particular that must be responsible and anything else wouldn't have been as good
Your last point is one of the things I love best about this sport - the progress is soooo fast. Try a new thing, like switching stance before or after a gybe, and for the first few days of trying I'm like, "how the hell does anyone do this?????" Then, suddenly you nail one, and it's now like, "ohhhhhh", and after a few more attempts its, "what's everyone having problems with this for?"
Crossing my fingers we can all get back on the water soon. Take care
Post by: Solent Foiler on April 04, 2020, 02:44:37 pm
Your last post kinda proves the point. You had to learn the right technique or you wouldn't have got anywhere. I've heard of quite a few people 'getting nowhere'. Now that could be for many reasons, but a in some of those cases they were on too small / short a board and have said as much.
You recommend mid 6' length as a max. I've learnt on something a bit longer, and don't feel like it's done me a disservice at all - even in 30+ knots, would you believe. I've had loads of fun, don't feel like it's held me back, never really struggled to get foiling, and have now reached the point where I'm after something smaller (5'6) but that's after getting a real solid foundation.
I suspect my board pumping technique is pretty terrible, and initially might not get foiling as quickly on the new board. But I'm also confident that it won't take me long to grasp because I've got all the other skills in the locker.
Peace!
Post by: Dommo on April 03, 2020, 07:11:49 pm
OK Dommo - I'll take that **** slap! I was speaking less precisely than the detail you've gone into - I certainly wasn't trying to be controversial!
I conflated volume and stability which is only partly true due to width, like you point out. Both are needed for stability.
On length... Again not trying to be controversial because what you say is right but in displacement mode (not planing) top speed is determined by waterline length - that's not disputed. A longer board glides faster than a short one. Assuming no pumping of the board (as a beginner won't be) a longer board will get up to foiling speed faster than a short one especially if using a smaller foil which needs higher speed to reach lift off. If I'm wrong on that then I'll happily stand corrected, but the physics doesn't seem illogical. It might be that most beginners are using bigger foils compared to me that this issue is not as I experienced it, as take off speed is lower.
In marginal conditions, I focus getting the board speed up, give a couple big efforts in pumping the foil, and that unsticks the board and off I go. I don't think I'm getting much forward propulsion from the board pumping but its just enough to get the board up and released to enable acceleration from the wing. The higher speed I can generate before pumping the board the easier it is.
All current foiling boards are designed assuming that they will be pumped to help get on the foil and as such will want to go short as possible to aid that, and reduce swing weight. Beginners are generally focused on pumping the wing rather than foil.
I think that's all you called me out on. Can't see all you wrote.
Your turn! ;-)
Haha, i never meant it as a slap - just can't resist a controversial discussion is all ;D
If you're using small foils then yes, I can see how you need to have more help from length to get up on the foil, especially when learning the correct technique. Its all relative to our kit and the conditions. I started off with a 4m wing in av 12-15 knot conditions. Needless to say I had to learn to pump both the wing AND the board very quickly or I wouldn't get anywhere. I had a lightbulb moment a while back leading from when I pumped the board and the nose went up, only to stall yet again - at the time I remembered watching a video where the guy was saying that as soon as the nose comes up, to shift your weight forward and use your front foot to push forwards as well as down, and it was the forwards motion that he stressed as being the most important part. I did it and the speed that movement generates is phenomenal, and I still find it the best way to get flying when underpowered - in fact it's essential for taking off when downwinding (with a paddle not a wing) as the push from the swell is so weak. I would imagine a long board would impede this movement, so I'm sticking to my guns when recommending boards of 6'5 max for beginners. Sorry ;)
Post by: Solent Foiler on April 02, 2020, 08:37:41 pm
Post by: Solent Foiler on April 02, 2020, 08:33:18 pm
I conflated volume and stability which is only partly true due to width, like you point out. Both are needed for stability.
On length... Again not trying to be controversial because what you say is right but in displacement mode (not planing) top speed is determined by waterline length - that's not disputed. A longer board glides faster than a short one. Assuming no pumping of the board (as a beginner won't be) a longer board will get up to foiling speed faster than a short one especially if using a smaller foil which needs higher speed to reach lift off. If I'm wrong on that then I'll happily stand corrected, but the physics doesn't seem illogical. It might be that most beginners are using bigger foils compared to me that this issue is not as I experienced it, as take off speed is lower.
In marginal conditions, I focus getting the board speed up, give a couple big efforts in pumping the foil, and that unsticks the board and off I go. I don't think I'm getting much forward propulsion from the board pumping but its just enough to get the board up and released to enable acceleration from the wing. The higher speed I can generate before pumping the board the easier it is.
All current foiling boards are designed assuming that they will be pumped to help get on the foil and as such will want to go short as possible to aid that, and reduce swing weight. Beginners are generally focused on pumping the wing rather than foil.
I think that's all you called me out on. Can't see all you wrote.
Your turn! ;-)
Post by: Dommo on April 02, 2020, 07:02:15 pm
I'm 65 kg and learnt to foil and wing on a Naish crossover 120 which is 7'4, using the jet 1650 and have had an amazing time on it. Incidentally, I'm now waiting for my new smaller board to be delivered so will be selling the crossover, but my thoughts...
The water where I ride can be wild - wind against tide, waves bouncing off sea walls, wake from shipping and at times I've been thankful for all the volume. I think people are always so quick to say aim for a smaller board - there are real benefits to a bigger, longer board - stability when getting going, glide in the water to get the foil up to speed, a certain amount of inertia in the board which makes it more forgiving to clumsy footwork, and you can recover from some pretty hard touch / crash downs.
I also ride a 5'3 34 litre foil board at my local wake park, so know what a small board feels like and there no way I'd be ready to wing that just yet. It's the dream, but something to work towards.
I guess my takeaway is that foiling the 120 doesn't feel clumsy or awkward. Yes it doesn't pump as well as a small board but that's a small price to pay when learning IMHO. I'm not conscious of the size of it in use, perhaps that's because I'm using a slightly smaller foil than many. I think my progression would have been slower on a smaller board.
I've had a real dilemma deciding how small I should go for my new board - 80 or 95 litres - and I went for the 95. Reason being that the this will be my new 'big' board with my eye on the 5'3 being the windy board eventually. The ease of use for where I am trumped the extra bit of performance gain from a smaller board.
Side note - I also have the large Thrust foil which I learnt on at the wake park with the crossover. That's 1250 and known to be a 'responsive' foil - ie not the first choice for learning and I found it a challenging experience, but hey, ignorance is bliss and I use it on the 5'3 now. Point being that the foil and board package determine feel.
You've raised some controversial points - I'm not arguing this to be belligerent, I just think it's important to put across the other side of the argument: I agree with what you say about length aiding "a certain amount of inertia in the board which makes it more forgiving to clumsy footwork, and you can recover from some pretty hard touch / crash downs", BUT, I don't agree that the glide gained by length aids foiling, or that volume aids stability. To get the board up on the foil doesn't require you to get up to planing speed - the foil takes over for lift and speed way before that happens. Because of lower take off speeds (compared to normal SUP surfing) the length of a board over 7ft (possibly over 6'5) is redundant for foiling, but because it's so important for SUP surfing (where the quicker you get planing the better) people assume that the extra length is relevant for foiling as well. Length (up to a certain point) is important for fore/aft stability (i.e helps you not to bury the nose) but not the type of stability that makes you fall off (i.e sideways tilt), which is so important in choppy/unstable conditions.
Take the leaders in foil board design - Dave Kalama, Jimmy Lewis etc - their board shapes are all based around shorter, wider, thicker designs. They pack the same volume into a 5'5 board that most 7' boards have. In interviews they say that stability is determined much more by width than volume or length. Think of volume as float rather than stability. A board that is just below the surface of the water is actually slightly more stable than a board that sits just above the water because a lot of the turbulence passes over it. Having said that, volume helps you to paddle faster because if you are on top of the water there is, by definition, less board pushing through the water, therefore less drag. Brands like JP and f-one started off with long narrow foil boards, but even they are (slowly) changing to shorter, wider designs. Zane Schweitzer (one of the only people to rival Kai Lenny in downwind foil races) started foiling on a 7'6 Starboard, and has since designed a sub 5' foil board for his own use. Dave Hamasaki, (also Maui) rides a custom 4'4 Jimmy Lewis (ok, he's a small guy), Austin Kalama, Tomo - pretty much everyone on Maui rides short, wide boards with extra thickness to boost the volume - check them all out on YouTube. 'One foil boards' based in Australia - short & wide. Sunova - short & wide. Naish...ditto. See the pattern?
I completely agree with you about not wanting to go too short as a beginner - you have to be reasonably good to ride a very short board, but IMO the benefits of the longer boards (over 6'5) have all been proven to be defunct. Short boards don't take that long to get used to though. Before foiling I never went shorter than 9'7 for SUP surfing. After foiling with my 6'5 board for a few months I tried a friends 7' board and never went back.
Haha just realised I started off saying your comments were controversial, and then ended up going off onto a bit of a rant - sorry, I blame the self isolation
To put my opinions into context with my experience (as I recognise that this is all subjective and my opinion is subject to bias) - I'm 85kg's and started with a 6'5 125ltr board, now using a 5'5 105ltr board, with GoFoils maliko 280, 200 & IWA. Also regularly wakefoil with a 3'11 12ltr board. My local conditions mean I mostly do downwinding with a wing rather than a paddle. Rarely get decent waves.
The sea state here is always choppy which is why i value wide boards - the very few times its been glassy smooth I could have danced on my board and not fallen offPost by: dave1986 on April 02, 2020, 03:25:07 pm
I'm 65 kg and learnt to foil and wing on a Naish crossover 120 which is 7'4, using the jet 1650 and have had an amazing time on it. Incidentally, I'm now waiting for my new smaller board to be delivered so will be selling the crossover, but my thoughts...
I'd potentially interested in your Naish Crossover 120 if you sell. Let me know.
Dave
Post by: Solent Foiler on April 02, 2020, 10:20:05 am
The water where I ride can be wild - wind against tide, waves bouncing off sea walls, wake from shipping and at times I've been thankful for all the volume. I think people are always so quick to say aim for a smaller board - there are real benefits to a bigger, longer board - stability when getting going, glide in the water to get the foil up to speed, a certain amount of inertia in the board which makes it more forgiving to clumsy footwork, and you can recover from some pretty hard touch / crash downs.
I also ride a 5'3 34 litre foil board at my local wake park, so know what a small board feels like and there no way I'd be ready to wing that just yet. It's the dream, but something to work towards.
I guess my takeaway is that foiling the 120 doesn't feel clumsy or awkward. Yes it doesn't pump as well as a small board but that's a small price to pay when learning IMHO. I'm not conscious of the size of it in use, perhaps that's because I'm using a slightly smaller foil than many. I think my progression would have been slower on a smaller board.
I've had a real dilemma deciding how small I should go for my new board - 80 or 95 litres - and I went for the 95. Reason being that the this will be my new 'big' board with my eye on the 5'3 being the windy board eventually. The ease of use for where I am trumped the extra bit of performance gain from a smaller board.
Side note - I also have the large Thrust foil which I learnt on at the wake park with the crossover. That's 1250 and known to be a 'responsive' foil - ie not the first choice for learning and I found it a challenging experience, but hey, ignorance is bliss and I use it on the 5'3 now. Point being that the foil and board package determine feel.
Post by: stevez on April 02, 2020, 08:27:37 am
It's a bit of a challenge to SUP, in part because I'm a very average Supper.
But with a wing in hand it's a piece of cake to balance and ride.
Wing gives you a lot of stability.
Post by: dave1986 on April 01, 2020, 04:30:56 pm
So it seems that if I'm looking for a beginner board for only wing foiling then kg body weight +20 or 30litre is adequate.
But if I plan to also use it for SUP foiling (without a wing) Then body weight +50litres may be better.
Post by: stenninger on April 01, 2020, 02:04:21 pm
SUP-foiling is a WHOLE DIFFERENT story.
If you need a board for winging and SUP-foiling go for more volume and more length!
Post by: Dommo on April 01, 2020, 01:18:53 pm
That's interesting. How much SUP experience do you have? Did you learn on flat or choppy water, and how long did it take to consistently ride on the foil? I read that body weight + 30 litre is about right for a beginner with good board skills which would be 120 to 125 litre for me.
I did have kite foil , wave-SUP and windsurfing experience (but I'm not very talented )
It took me 1 or 2 sessions to ride on the foil. This sport is not difficult to learn.
The thing is, as soon as your wing is pulling a bit, the extra volume is useless.
You just need a bit volume while lifting your wing and while getting up on your feet.
I did start on a choppy lake. After like 5 sessions I even managed to ride in waves.
I don't see the advantage of more than +20l.
Yeah, I agree with Stenninger about the volume being useless as soon as you have enough power/pull from the wind wing. I look at it from both wind winging AND SUP foiling. For the latter, that little bit of extra volume is a blessing when downwinding or when paddling back out and waiting for the next wave. If you're only going to be wing foiling you don't need as much volume :)
Post by: stenninger on April 01, 2020, 11:44:42 am
That's interesting. How much SUP experience do you have? Did you learn on flat or choppy water, and how long did it take to consistently ride on the foil? I read that body weight + 30 litre is about right for a beginner with good board skills which would be 120 to 125 litre for me.
I did have kite foil , wave-SUP and windsurfing experience (but I'm not very talented )
It took me 1 or 2 sessions to ride on the foil. This sport is not difficult to learn.
The thing is, as soon as your wing is pulling a bit, the extra volume is useless.
You just need a bit volume while lifting your wing and while getting up on your feet.
I did start on a choppy lake. After like 5 sessions I even managed to ride in waves.
I don't see the advantage of more than +20l.
Post by: phil on April 01, 2020, 11:07:19 am
Post by: dave1986 on April 01, 2020, 09:14:57 am
I started with a 6.1 107l (me 82kg) and I'll switch to 5.9 92l after 6 months riding.
I would recommend a smaller board. 100 or max 110l are enough!
I perfer shorter boards cause pumping is easier with shorter boards.
That's interesting. How much SUP experience do you have? Did you learn on flat or choppy water, and how long did it take to consistently ride on the foil? I read that body weight + 30 litre is about right for a beginner with good board skills which would be 120 to 125 litre for me.
Post by: Dommo on April 01, 2020, 09:04:54 am
Personally I think if you've got the money to spend then its always going to be best to get a beginner board to start with and then sell it and upgrade to a smaller board when you're ready. That way you'll have a much better chance of working out what board style you prefer. If you get a smaller board to begin with it'll save you money (if you get it right the first time!) but it'll make the learning curve harder and therefore longer.
All the boards you've listed are fine, I'd advise discounting those above 7ft simply because the extra length doesn't seem to provide many benefits over those from mid 6ft to 7ft.
Post by: stenninger on April 01, 2020, 08:12:46 am
I would recommend a smaller board. 100 or max 110l are enough!
I prefer shorter boards cause pumping is easier with shorter boards.
Post by: dave1986 on March 31, 2020, 10:31:40 pm
I'm yet to decide what board to buy so looking here for advice. I'm about 90kg and and intermediate kite foiler (able to gybe/ jump/ ride toeside etc). I'm planning on using a Moses 1100 foil on either a 72 or 82cm mast.
My dilemma is whether to buy a bigger board around 140 litres that would be easy to learn on but I risk growing out of it very quickly... but with the advantage of potentially being big enough to be able learn surf-foiling with it
Or do I go for somthing a little smaller (but not tiny) around 120 litres 6ft 6 to 6ft 8 length which I wouldn't grow out of too quickly, but probably a bit on the small side to learn surf foiling.
Options I'm looking at are:
Starboard Hyper Foil.
- 7ft 7" x 30" / 137 litre
- 6ft 6" x 30" / 116 litre
Indiana SUP Foil
- 6ft 2" x 30" / 130 litre
Fanatic Sky SUP Foil
- 6ft 11" x 30" / 142 litre
- 6ft 7" x 28.5" / 125 litre
Takuma SUP Foil
- 6ft 6" x 27 / 135 litre
Axis Carbon SUP Foilboard
- 6ft 8" x 28" / 120 litre
F-one Rocket Wing
- 6ft 6" x 30" / 135 litre
GONG SUP ZUMA 100% FOIL FSP 2X
- 6ft 6" x 30" / 120 litre
- 6ft 9" x 31" / 140 litre
I would welcome your thoughts and suggestions on both the board size, as well as the brand/ model.
Dave