The Wing Forum

DISCUSSIONS => WINGFOIL => Topic started by: RussAndy on July 22, 2020, 05:14:31 am

Title: Duotone Wing Foil FrontStalling
Post by: RussAndy on July 22, 2020, 05:14:31 am

Appreciate the wisdom in the forum. Learned a lot and wanted to thank the community.

I wanted to know if anybody else had noticed that the Dutone Wing Foil (the 2019) version was more easily overpowered than inflatable wings, and if you are in a wind range slightly above its optimal point the wing kinda pushes down on you so its harder to spill air and ride with less power. There seems to be a much smaller optimum trim, overtrimmed (i.e. the backhand pulled in) and you have too much power, under trimmed and you get the wing pushing down on you. So there seems to be less angle to work with than other inflatable wings.

I was out on a 5m when I should have been on a 4 or possibly a 3 ... 24MPH, and it was pretty hard to ride it, I swapped out wings with a buddy who was on a 5M swing wing and that doesn't have this problem. We both agreed it was very pronounced. Same wind, same size, very different behavior for the wings. The bottom line is that duotones don't seem to have the ability to dump wind as well as the other wings, and so have less range. Or at least that is my experience but wanted to hear input from the community?

I was wondering if:

1. Other riders had experienced this.

2. Does anybody know if this issue is addressed with the new leash line in the new echo. And what should you do if this happens, I presume you want to make the canvas as taught as possible, so if you are getting front stalled do you pull on the blue line near the boom? Any advice on what to do with that line while riding would be appreciated. My Echos have not arrived yet so I can't experiment.

3. I have noticed that if you make extend the boom out and make the canvas very tight it reduces this effect, has anybody had any success in doing that, just making the wing canvas super tight ?

Thanks a lot for any input here.

Title: Re: Duotone Wing Foil FrontStalling
Post by: Dommo on July 22, 2020, 06:30:34 am
I've used the Duotone Echo 7m extensively, and an f-one swing 5m a few times, but not the original Duotone wing, so my experiences are limited due to this, however what I found is that the Echo is VERY stable and easy to use in it's top end (when powered up) as well as having good low end power. From reviews I've read and watched everyone says the canvas is much tighter in the Echo compared to the v1. I have used my 7m Echo in 6-19 knots, playing around with the length of the boom from min to max settings. Because it's so stiff, and because its got a rigid boom it's the best wing for pumping In my opinion. The boom length makes a slight difference in handling - when the boom is at max extension it's a bit easier to handle when maxed out, but the trailing edge gets a bit flappy as a result. This isn't a problem in terms of handling, it's just that I noticed the noise. Of course this just could have been because I was very overpowered at that point - a 7m isn't designed to be used in 16-19 knots, (I would normally be on my 5m at this wind range) but I wanted to test it to see what it could do and what it felt like. I would say the 7m Echo is perfect for me (85kg, 6'2" intermediate skill) in 8-15 knots. It will keep me going in lulls down to 6 knots easy, and I can just about handle it up to 18 knots, but when consistently above 14 knots I would always swap to my 5m as over 15 knots the 7m is just too much of a beast and tires you out quickly.
The little experience I've had with the f-one swing is that it has better low end performance than the Echo, but I really felt the gusts which didn't lead to a smooth ride when in its upper power range. Both wings felt really easy to use and handled very well. It's a shame I haven't used the Duotone v1 so I can't compare it to the Echo.
The blue line will depower the wing slightly when you pull on it but it's not comfortable to do this unless you put a plastic tube over the rear section (eg from an old harness line) to protect your fingers when pulling on it.
Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Foil FrontStalling
Post by: stenninger on July 23, 2020, 08:37:48 am
I think I know what you are talking about.
And I did experience this with my wings (non Duotone) too.

Everyone who has windsurfing experience knows the feeling of an extremely overpowered sail which starts to push against you front hand.
The same thing happens with overpowerd wings too.

But this should not happen close the sweet spot of your wing. This is more something you will expereience if you ride it way above the recommended wind range.
Let's say a 5m wing is made for like 12 to 22 knots and you try to use it in 28knots gusts.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Foil FrontStalling
Post by: RussAndy on July 23, 2020, 01:20:57 pm
Dear Stenninger: Appreciate the response.

I guess my central points were:

1. This downpressing effect is much more pronounced in the Duotones vs the other pump kites. The reason for this maybe that they are much more rigid. The upside is they perform better in appropriate conditions but perform worse outside their intended ranges. For example, if you take a 5M Swing Wing and 5M Duotone out in the same overpowered conditions you will see that the Duotone is much harder to ride. Go with a buddy and switch out, and you will see that its night and day difference.  Or you can even experiment on the beach, take two 5Ms and compare how the duotones downpressure is much more pronounced. The dutone has more frontstalling, the pushdown effect is considerably greater. Its barely ridable in the same conditions where a pump airwing without the boom is manageable. They are more sensitive to overpowering. Ergo, they have less range. This is a big deal on a variety of levels. And I am surprised it hasn't been discussed more on the forums.

2. Does the new cannpopy tension in the new Echos make this effect better or worse? I don't know, my sense is tighter canopy means it will be worse, but when they arrive (4 weeks and waiting now) I will do a test and let the group know.

Obvoiusly there are tradeoffs, the duotone is more rigid/easier hand adjusments which have tons of benefits but its good to know the disadvantages of this approach, which it sounds like, they have less range.

If anybody in the group has input here about this would love to hear more because I am wondering about what this means for quiver size?



Title: Re: Duotone Wing Foil FrontStalling
Post by: Dommo on July 24, 2020, 05:22:44 am
The Duotone Echo has an excellent range. I don't think you will find anyone who thinks its range is less than that of any other good quality  wing, boom or center strut. I have a 7m and a 5m and there is plenty of overlap - I've never had a day that I thought I really needed a 6m - although it would be lovely if I had the money ;)
Having used the Echo, and a fair few wings with center struts from other brands, I haven't noticed any difference in frontstalling when overpowered, in fact I felt that the Naish s25 (v2) was more difficult to control when overpowered than the Echo. Maybe it was an issue for the Duotone v1, but like I said before I can't comment on the v1 as I haven't used it.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Foil FrontStalling
Post by: knatti on July 24, 2020, 09:42:15 am
The other day I got to the lake and it had 22 - 32 knots wind.
I just had my 7m Echo (2019 5m at home) so I thought I  will give it a try.

I just went a couple of meters out and decided it was a bit to much for my skill level (startet foiling this year).
I was alright with depowering, there was just not much between no power (flapping) and much power. So I tried to pull that blue line which did help a little, so maybe with better skills you can use it to get startet and let go when you want more power (maybe for jumps)

I will have to add a tube round the blue line (seen some pictures) as it is quite under tension and thin and hurts your fingers if you have to hold it over a longer period.

About changing the boom length:
As I seldom have the problem of too much wind I have only been experimenting with the boom length for lighter wind. It does feel to catch more wind with the shorter boom setting, but I haven't done any hard facts experiments.
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Foil FrontStalling
Post by: RussAndy on July 24, 2020, 08:13:50 pm
Thanks for letting me know, seems like the consensus is the overpowering issue is not any worse than other wings, which is great to hear.

I am eager to get my airwings from Duotone. Will let you know once I test them out. 
Title: Re: Duotone Wing Foil FrontStalling
Post by: Dwight on July 31, 2020, 12:59:14 pm
The original 5m Duotone was not the best. Several wings were released after it, that behaved better. The Echo is light years better and one of the very best of the new batch of wings.

Title: Re: Duotone Wing Foil FrontStalling
Post by: RussAndy on August 03, 2020, 07:51:29 pm
Thanks Dwight, yes I have come to learn this but appreciate your confirming it. Thank you.

I was wondering what I was doing wrong when other riders were reporting much bigger wind ranges and a much more placid experience. I spent quite a bit of time on technique trying to find the sweet spot depowering the airwing while still having enough power to stay on foil. My arms were either getting pulled hard almost out of their sockets or their power was not sufficient and Id pump a lot or have to go downwind to stay on foil. There was just such a fine line to find in wind above 21/22 MPH. When a gust came my arms got janked hard, when it past, I had to ride downwind to stay on foil. Really annoying. Other riders on the beach explained how they could easily depower, so I thought it was me, but it turns out it was a pecularity of that particular airwing/size combination.  And frankly I think were a middle battery had broken was somehow magnifying this effect.

I have the new echo and your right its night and day.  Id imagine its much less prone to backwinding (I haven't tried it in high wind I also have a 4m) is less prone to flipping and doing that wild dance when it smashes down into the water up and down and is much more stable. A big improvement.

I now understand that the old 5M was particularly prone to this backwinding, frontstalling effect.

I do enjoy your videos, thank you, learning a lot.